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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 985 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Delivering Scottish Social Security

Meeting date: 30 November 2023

Katy Clark

Yes. It has given a perspective, which is helpful.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 November 2023

Katy Clark

Does the cabinet secretary not accept that setting up a council now to do the work to inform the policy approach will mean that any changes are ready for implementation sooner? She has spoken about a stakeholder advisory group. In the light of what she has just said to Marie McNair, does she see that body as performing the same function?

I think that the cabinet secretary accepts that the current scheme is not fit for purpose—she called it “inherently unfair”. I am told that only 7 per cent of people who currently receive the benefit are women. I am not sure whether that is the exact figure, because it is difficult to get the information, but it is clear that the vast majority of people who receive the benefit are men and that that does not reflect who is being injured.

If the cabinet secretary accepts that the current scheme is not fit for purpose, does she also accept that we need to start the work on framing what a new benefit might look like as soon as possible, if we are to achieve a satisfactory benefit? Yet again, she will be responsible for a benefit that is not fit for purpose, as we have seen with other social security benefits.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Delivering Scottish Social Security

Meeting date: 30 November 2023

Katy Clark

The paper in which you reflect on your experiences is really helpful. You refer to Westminster’s

“less than glorious track record”

on social security benefits. It is fair to say that many of us have quite high expectations of what might be possible in Scotland. Indeed, in your paper, you talk about those

“high expectations bumping up against”

implicit and explicit constraints.

I am somebody who looks at outcomes. One of the surprises to me is, despite what the cabinet secretary said earlier, the frustration and experience of many claimants, who do not feel that the outcomes are much different from before. They still have to wait lengthy periods for benefits and, sometimes, those benefits are not granted.

There are two categories, I suppose. There is the creation of new benefits such as the Scottish child payment, and there is the migration of existing benefits. In relation to the latter, what are the lessons from our experiences so far about how we do that better—we do not want to just mirror what comes from down south—and how do we speed up the process to get to a better outcome? I know that a lot of that is about money, but perhaps we can put money to one side and focus on the aspects that are not about money.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

I have a slightly different question about some evidence that we heard earlier. There was a suggestion that there might be fewer personal injury cases if the new body was recommending awards. That might not matter so much in the public sector, where all the money comes out of the same pot, but have you given any thought to how that might affect the private sector? I do not need detailed responses now, but can you point to anything that would help us to ensure that employers take responsibility?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

Perhaps Norman Provan would like to contribute. He has spoken about Covid a couple of times. Norman, do you think that a different composition of the council and a different way of doing things could lead to quicker outcomes or different outcomes?

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

As the witnesses will appreciate, the committee has been looking at whether setting up a new council in Scotland would add value or whether there would be duplication with IIAC’s current role.

We have heard evidence in relation to long Covid, firefighter cancers and so on. How would the new council relate to the existing UK body? How can we ensure that there is added value and avoid duplication?

I will perhaps ask the professor first—although you are in the room, deputy convener, so you will know who wants to come in.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

I will pick up on what has been said. In the previous evidence session, which the witnesses might have heard, the view was that 50 per cent of the council seats should be held by trade union representatives. The bill suggests a composition of 12 members. Could you say more about whether you think the proportions of the new council’s membership are important? What should those proportions be? We have already heard about trade union representation, but what should the employer and academic representation be?

Given that I am not in the room, it might be better if the deputy convener could bring in a witness who looks like they would like to respond.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

I cannot see who would like to come in. Would Ian Tasker like to come in?

10:15  

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

Okay, so that would inform decisions that were taken thereafter.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Katy Clark

No. We can think about that issue later. That is helpful.