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You said that I used examples from outside Scotland. I said that the Sarah Everard case, which, obviously, was a case down south, would erode women’s confidence in the police. However, there are many examples in Scotland. If you are suggesting that the problem exists elsewhere but not in Scotland, I want to draw you on that.

I am quite happy to put cases to you. A lot of the information that I have is from the media, and you will know about it better than I do. For example, the Channel 4 “Dispatches” documentary “Cops on Trial”, which was shown in October, reported that 166 police officers and special constables within Police Scotland had been accused of 245 counts of sexual misconduct. We can go through some of the Scottish examples.

I mentioned the Sarah Everard case because the saturation media coverage of that case and its details erodes women’s confidence in the police. Are you trying to suggest that the problems that might exist down south with domestic abuse, for example, are not a problem in Police Scotland? I would like to know whether you are trying to suggest that you are in a better position on those issues than the police down south are, for example.

From what Mr Cowan has said, it is likely that the Crown would have criteria for referral of a rape or other sexual offence case to the High Court or the specialist court.

To go back to the issue of downgrading, the concern is that, if there is a cap of 10 years on sentencing in the specialist court, that makes it look like a lower court—similar to the sheriff court. The sheriff court has a range of disposals, and if a longer sentence is desired than is within its powers, the sentencing aspects are referred to the High Court. I understand that the thinking is that that is how the specialist court would operate. Even though a High Court judge was sitting in the specialist court, they would be able to impose a sentence of up to only 10 years and, if they thought that a sentence of more than 10 years might be appropriate, that would have to be referred to the High Court.

Will the kinds of issues that the governance group looks at include consideration of whether the specialist court is subject to that sentencing cap or has a full range of disposals? Is that still a live issue, cabinet secretary?

That is helpful. My main question is: does DCC Graham believe that there is a cultural problem?

I apologise. I appreciate that the proposals do not necessarily come from you. Perhaps I phrased my question wrongly. I was just trying to gather your understanding of what is proposed. Are you saying that, if the sentencing judge in a specialist court felt that the disposals that they had available to them were not sufficient, they could refer the case to another court for sentencing?

Did those courts take place in the court buildings where such cases are normally dealt with? I presume that you did not have anywhere else and, therefore, that those cases took place in a very traditional court setting.

I fully understand that your role is to implement the proposal, so I am not asking you to justify anything. We are just trying to understand what you think is happening.

I will ask about domestic abuse, which is different from sexual offences. I understand that it has been possible to pilot certain practices in domestic abuse cases without the need for legislative change and that there have been specialist domestic abuse courts. Will you outline what difference that has made to the way in which cases were dealt with before or, indeed, are dealt with now in many situations?

I am thinking not so much about the virtual trials as about pilot specialist domestic abuse courts. We were told that those were piloted before Covid. Will you share your understanding of that approach, any information that you have about how it worked and any evaluation that you are able to provide?

That would be very helpful.

I think that it would be helpful to ask them. Perhaps I can deal with sexual offences before I move on to the slightly different issue of domestic abuse cases.

Are you suggesting that cases in which a sentence of 10 years or more would be suitable—there are many appalling sexual crimes, such as historic child abuse, rape and so on, for which the sentence would be greater than that—would still be dealt with by the High Court?

I do not particularly expect you to comment on this, but there is a concern that that might create a hierarchy. If there is a limit on sentencing, the message that is sent by conviction in a specialist court is different from that sent by conviction in the High Court.

It is the same at the other end. At the moment, the courts deal with many sexual offences, such as underage sex, that might involve a boy who is over 16 and a girl who is younger than 16. The suggestion is that some of those cases, which are difficult and sensitive for the people involved—often they are very difficult cases that involve very young people—might not go to the specialist court but might continue to be dealt with as they are at the moment. Is that your understanding?