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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 August 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Thank you.

Moving on to the proposed sex crimes court, the Faculty of Advocates has told us that

“there is no single feature of the proposed court which could not be delivered rapidly”,

and the Law Society of Scotland has said that the establishment of a specialist division in the existing courts would be—I am paraphrasing—quicker, cheaper and as effective as the proposed new court. When I put that to Lady Dorrian a couple of weeks ago, she said that we need to

“seize the opportunity to create the culture change from the ground up”.—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 10 January 2024; c 22.]

She said that if we fail to do so, that will result in us having the same conversations in 40 years’ time. I do not want to put any of you in the position of murmuring a judge, but are you persuaded by the Lord Justice Clerk’s argument on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Earlier, we heard from the academics that there is a significant lack of research in Scotland on a lot of these matters. Professor Cheryl Thomas’s view is that the juryless rape trials would therefore be, at best, premature. Those who support the measures, including Lady Dorrian, say that the pilot will allow for the collection of evidence. The academic in turn responds and asks how, without any existing evidence or research, we can measure what we are trying to measure with the new body of evidence that will be yielded from the pilot.

Do you think that we should get more evidence? I know that John Swinney said earlier that it is not unusual to hear a call for more evidence, but it seems particularly important in this case, given the radical changes that are being proposed and the significant lack of evidence that exists. Do you think that much more evidence should be collected before we embark on this?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Do you favour a different approach?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

I assume that you would rather get rid of the not proven verdict, on that basis.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Often, the Crown does not object to such applications, so the victim is left with no voice.

I think that you also support an extension of the proposed timescale in the bill, from 21 to 28 days.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Can I ask a very quick question about judges, convener?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

First, I thank you all for all the work that you have been doing, and for waiving your anonymity, which cannot have been easy.

The evidence that we have heard so far has been really compelling, and so many things that you have said jump out: being treated as an outsider in the court; being treated as a bit of evidence; and being alone and scared. I note what Ellie said about how the defence lawyers often conduct themselves and how the court is an environment in which individuals can act with impunity.

I have a lot of questions. One issue that we have not touched on so far relates to the proposed new sexual offences courts and the proposal that there should be a pilot of judge-only rape trials without juries.

Do you have any views on whether, in your circumstances, you would have preferred a non-jury trial, or were you satisfied with that aspect? Was the presence of a jury almost a counter to the legal establishment that dictated the rest of the proceedings?

Any one of you can answer.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

Thank you. I am mindful that other members want to come in.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

I wonder whether that goes back to some of the evidence that you gave us previously about data.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Russell Findlay

I have a question on part 6, if I have time, convener. [Interruption.] I will take that as a yes.

My question is about the invocation of section 275 in the 1995 act, and the requirement for independent legal representation in that situation, which is in the bill. Serious concerns have been raised by the Crown, the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service, the judges and the Law Society of Scotland about that provision leading to additional churn and delay and further trauma for complainers. However, a new element has been raised today by some of the witnesses we heard from earlier, which is about cases in which character or sexual history information is introduced in effect by stealth by defence lawyers without making a section 275 application. How widespread might that be? Does the bill need to address that particular blind spot or loophole, or whatever you want to call it?