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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I would like to return to the point that was raised by Rona Mackay on the HM Inspectorate of Prosecution in Scotland report from 2021, which talked about CAAPD freezing cases, and you have already referred to that. The detail of that report is actually quite shocking. It said that cases were frozen while you were gathering or requesting additional work to be done. In some cases, I think that it reset the clock rather than just paused it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That answer illustrates neatly how complicated the landscape is for a member of the public. If that were represented as a flow chart, it would be quite confusing.

Communication with complainers—whether they are police officers or members of the public—is vital. To go back to the HMIPS report, it said that communication from CAAPD was unsatisfactory in four in 10 of the 80 cases that were looked at. The report contains quite detailed accounts, some of which are pretty shocking, to be frank.

You came into your post when that report was produced. What can you say about the quality of communication from CAAPD now?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but, as the PIRC, are you now confident that, if similar cases arose now or in the future, Police Scotland would treat them properly?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I have heard of examples of domestic abuse victims suffering from their encounter with the police. Is that the type of thing that you are talking about?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

It is a very broad range, yes. Thank you, I will not take up any more time.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I am more interested in the specifics of the enforcement and monitoring. Is that perhaps quite an unusual way of ensuring that the code is monitored? Could the legislation that we are looking at not be amended to do it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Does that sometimes put the federation in a bit of a bind? If it is a blue-on-blue complaint, when an officer may be a whistleblower of some sort, the complaint will often be about other officers. Do you find that a bit of a conflict to deal with?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Sticking with costs and specific to your evidence, Mr Malcolm, you said that the proposal for civilian employees to come under the duty of ethics and fundamentally change their employment status would interfere with their existing employment rights. They would become a regulated workforce in the same way as police officers. Your written submission made a useful comparison, saying that you would not treat non-medical National Health Service staff as you would treat doctors and nurses. The last line caught my eye. It says:

“Should any change of status be imposed, remedying such disparities would be a matter of urgency for Unison.”

Reading between the lines, that sounds expensive. It sounds as though Unison would bang down the door of the SPA saying, “Each and every one of our members who is subject to these new regulations deserves a pay rise.” Is that what that means?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Was there a conversation about that between Unison and the Government prior to publication of the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 May 2024

Russell Findlay

One issue that is a bit of an elephant in the room is the potential cost of the legislation. The initial financial memorandum put the figure at £1.4 million or thereabouts. The latest figure from the Scottish Government is approximately £5.8 million, which is more than 300 per cent higher. Yesterday, the convener of the Finance and Public Administration Committee, who is a Scottish National Party MSP, said that the Scottish Government knowingly presented to the finance committee

“figures that it knew were completely inaccurate”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 7 May 2024; c 52.]

The SNP justice secretary denied the charge but, clearly, it is of significant concern. Do any of you have any insight into whether that £5.8 million is realistic, whether it is likely to go higher and what it might mean for policing generally?