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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 June 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Section 10 of the bill allows police officers acting as members of the public to go to the PIRC, which is, again, something that you support.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Is there any likely movement on the bill in that respect?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I should perhaps know this, or perhaps it was not asked of the police witnesses yesterday, but do the police support that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

One of the reasons I ask is that one of the unions that represents non-police-officer staff says that the duty would potentially come with pay demands. Would that be a factor in reconsidering it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

That makes sense.

The committee has taken evidence on the suicide of police officers, which is a very sensitive subject. The criminal allegations against the police division was able to tell us, when it gave evidence, that five officers took their own lives, four of whom were subject to non-criminal misconduct proceedings; one of them was accused of a criminal matter. The family and friends of some of those who have died have expressed concerns about not only the impact of the proceedings on those people as a potential contributory factor in what happened to them, but the subsequent lack of scrutiny of the circumstances of those cases.

They are absolutely tragic and suicide is complex, but are you satisfied that the bill will, in some way, address that apparent blind spot?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

Another issue that the bill seeks to address is protection for police whistleblowers. We have heard about horrific cases, and there have been cases reported in the public domain, of the service losing good officers and good officers losing their careers. That is a huge financial cost to the service, and it impacts on people’s health and wellbeing.

Again, taking the bill in the round, is there enough in there that would protect those officers whose only wrongdoing appears to have been trying to make a valid complaint and blow the whistle from having their lives destroyed as a result? Does the bill partly fix that, or is it more about culture?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

But we are talking about police officers who have cause to blow the whistle in relation to what is going on in the organisation.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

You spoke to Pauline McNeill about section 15 giving the PIRC the power to review Police Scotland and the SPA’s work. You are opposed to that, but the PIRC is supportive of it. In its submission to us, it said:

“there have been occasions where at the conclusion of investigations, matters have been highlighted to HMICS for review, however, due to capacity, HMICS has not been in a position to undertake same.â€

I do not think that that is a criticism; it is more the case that the PIRC believes that including it by giving it the proposed power will add capacity. Is that a compelling argument?

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

I wonder whether there is a belt-and-braces argument for it, as there is with your proposal about whistleblowers being able to go to the PIRC and the SPA. It would provide that option.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 May 2024

Russell Findlay

The PIRC has said that it does not have the resources or the personnel for other proposals in the bill, so that is consistent with what you have said.