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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 1673 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

I echo the convener’s words about the tragic loss of the life of firefighter Barry Martin.

I will ask about resources. We heard from your ministerial colleague Kevin Stewart that we will not know until late 2024 whether criminal justice social workers will be part of the national care service. Do you have a view on whether they should be part of it, and do you have a view on the impact that that might have on the bill?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

No, I think that you have covered it, thank you.

I will go back to the financial elements. We got additional written evidence from South Lanarkshire Council suggesting that, by its calculation, the additional burden on its justice social workers would come in at ÂŁ700,000 a year. However, the council thinks that that is an underestimate, because the amount is based on dated figures from the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service. Given that it is just one of 32 local authorities, you can only imagine that the financial burden could be quite significant across Scotland. Is the financial memorandum realistic? In the light of those concerns, does it need to be revisited?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

South Lanarkshire Council makes an interesting suggestion that, given the additional burden on it and its social work department, funding should be transferred from the Scottish Prison Service to local authorities. I do not know whether the council means that the Prison Service would pay for the services that the council would provide, or whether the Government would be required to reduce Scottish Prison Service funding—which, I am sure, Teresa Medhurst would have strong views on—and divert it to local authorities. Do you have any thoughts on that? Is that something that you might explore or support?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

Is that any different from how judicial discretion in such decisions operates just now?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

In one of your answers, you spoke about philosophical issues around bail, and this question will be an attempt at a hybrid of a practical and philosophical question.

Victim Support Scotland told us in evidence that it has serious misgivings about the bill, as you will be aware. It effectively says that more bail equals more crime. The Scottish Police Federation told us that

“it’s another good day for criminals”.

However, the social work/academic lobbyists, to put them into one group, are largely supportive of what is being proposed. One of the contributors from that side of the argument used the phrase “a risk appetite”, and that struck me as interesting. The point that they were making was—this is the philosophical part—that the public need almost to be persuaded that the risk in changing the system radically may lead to more crime on the streets and that is just a quid pro quo in terms of the benefits that you would get from not having people on remand.

Given what Jamie Greene just said about some of the serious offending that takes place by those on bail, and the inevitability that that will continue no matter what the system, do you think that the public have the appetite for that risk, and what can you do, as the cabinet secretary, to persuade people about this direction of travel? That is quite philosophical.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 February 2023

Russell Findlay

The bill will stop the release of prisoners on a Friday or, indeed, on the cusp of a bank holiday period so that they are provided with the support that they need in order not to reoffend or find themselves in dire straits.

There are some pretty tragic cases—not least the 2019 murder of Alan Geddes, which I am sure that you are familiar with. That individual helped a prisoner who had been released from custody with, it seems, no support, and he ended up being murdered by him within 24 hours of that release. His family are happy for me to mention the case. That illustrates the seriousness of the lack of support.

Jennifer Stoddart mentioned the need for operational changes rather than legislative changes. The bill will reduce the days on which people can be released, but would it not be better and more practical to fix the system, allow for Friday releases, and have in place the networks that exist, I presume, on the other days of the week? Rather than shrink the system, would it not be better to strive to have one that functions and protects people?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 January 2023

Russell Findlay

Indeed, but that applies now and no one is suggesting otherwise. No one is suggesting that people are getting locked up willy-nilly because of some vague idea that they might offend. From what we have seen, each case is based on a pretty robust process. Do you disagree with that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 January 2023

Russell Findlay

The bill suggests that criminal justice social work will have a much earlier and more active role in informing the Crown and the court about cases. Would that be helpful, as far as the Crown is concerned?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 25 January 2023

Russell Findlay

Does that means that the bill would, in effect, formalise the existing system, whereby criminal justice social work can and does feed into decision making?