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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 1207 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

I remind members of my entry in the register of members’ interests, which states that I am a practising general practitioner.

Councillor Kelly, you said that COSLA had pulled away from shared accountability, yet paragraph 80 of the memorandum talks about the importance of shared accountability. Given that unions have withdrawn support from the NCS—the Scottish Trades Union Congress and COSLA are the latest bodies to do so—and that, as we have heard, most of civic Scotland is united against it, it seems to me that the bill is dead in the water. However, Maree Todd, the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport, has said that COSLA’s

ā€œwalking away ... shows total disregard for the people we all serve.ā€

If the NCS is pushed through in its current form, what do you feel will happen to the sector?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

I declare an interest as a practising NHS GP.

It is not just COSLA that has pulled out; all the unions have done the same. I have been looking at the submissions, and no one is in full agreement that the bill as written is the way that it should be going. Certainly, that is true of the panel.

Karen Hedge spoke quite powerfully about the bill being about where the power sits. First, where does the power sit in the bill? Secondly, do we need the NCS in order to make the reforms that you have all said are needed, or could we make those reforms now, given that we have spent £28 million on the NCS so far?

10:15  

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

I remind everyone of my entry in the register of members’ interests as a registered NHS general practitioner.

I want to touch on palliative care, which we have not talked about at all—I want to stay on palliative care and not touch on assisted dying. The Scottish Government produced a policy paper with seven outcome measures. How will the national care service impact palliative care?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

Good morning. I refer to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a practising NHS GP. In your submission, Dr Elder-Woodward, you say:

ā€œLike ā€˜The Promise’ for childcare, this is a waste of paper with meaningless wordsā€.

We heard from our previous panel of witnesses that children’s services are in crisis. Given where we are right now with the bill, and the fact that Ā£28 million has been spent on it, do you feel that it is absolutely necessary, or could we already start making changes, especially in children’s services?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

Would anyone else like to respond?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

This will be my last question as I am aware that we are desperately tight for time. Fiona Davies spoke about this being a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, but we also heard from Julie Murray that the bill will not achieve some of its stated aims and objectives and that it is not quite achieving what the Feeley report wanted it to. Therefore, is the bill, as it has been set out for a second time, going to deliver for social care exactly what was intended and what you would like it to deliver?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

That is a very non-committal answer, and that does not seem to suggest that you have confidence in the bill—correct me if I am wrong. Do you have confidence in this bill to deliver exactly what you have just said?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

The stated intention of a bill and what is actually written in the bill could potentially be two different things, but I will move on, in the interests of time, as I am not getting an answer on that.

I have a question for the other panel members. At last week’s meeting, we were told that the bill is unique in that it unites most of civic Scotland against it. We are also seeing reports that COSLA no longer supports the bill. Given those two important factors relating to key partners, do you think that the bill, as it stands, is dead in the water?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

Would anyone else like to comment?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 October 2024

Dr Sandesh Gulhane

In the previous evidence session, we heard from Robbie Pearson about collaborative leadership, which paragraph 80 of the memorandum on amendments discusses. At the committee’s meeting last week, we heard that the bill is unique in uniting most of civic Scotland against it, and we have also heard that COSLA is looking to withdraw its support from the bill. The idea of collaborative leadership seems to have completely gone.

Given that that has happened, do you feel that the bill is dead in the water? I use those words on purpose, because we should not be scared of governmental special advisers—spads—not liking language that is used in committee. Is the bill dead in the water if there is a lack of collaborative leadership from most of civic Scotland?