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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 August 2025
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Displaying 2015 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Yes. I have some other questions.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

This gets to the heart of human rights, and it is ultimately about the human rights of trans people. Of course, trans people鈥檚 rights are human rights, not because they are trans but because they are human. We have heard in a lot of the evidence sessions about the importance of the human rights of everyone who is involved.

I am deeply disappointed by the public discourse around this particular debate, in which trans people have seen their rights being debated on opening the papers or watching the news; of course, women have also experienced that debate about rights, but human rights are inalienable, not debateable. I believe that a lot of that discourse is to do with the vacuum that was left by the Government between 2017 and 2019 and I am disappointed by that. What can the Government do to sort out this mess?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Thank you, cabinet secretary. Could you set out what changes you have made and what equalities analysis you have done since the equality impact assessment in 2017 to 2019? We have heard concerns that there have not been many changes.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

My final question is about single-sex spaces. I appreciate that we have had extensive discussions about that today and throughout the committee鈥檚 evidence sessions.

We have touched on section 22 of the 2004 act and protected information. Has the Government decided that the bill does not impact on the exemptions? Have you considered whether there is need for further exemptions in relation to section 22? What guidance will the Government or others issue on the matter, and in particular on the general occupational requirement exception?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Probably both, but I am specifically asking about annual reporting. Indeed, my next question is about annual reporting and whether you are prepared to commit to carrying out a post-legislative review and, indeed, whether you are prepared to consider the impact of including or not including non-binary gender recognition, perhaps within a year of the bill being passed.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Thank you. In evidence to the committee and through engagement as part of my fact-finding work on the bill, I have heard that there is an obvious difference between capturing population-level data and capturing individual-level data. We have touched on population-level data.

When it comes to individual-level data, there are concerns about people falling off the radar for particular health services. I appreciate that this is not directly related to the bill, but I think that it is important that we consider the issue. I make it clear that I think that trans people absolutely understand their bodies鈥攖hey are probably more mindful of their physical bodies than other people are, for various reasons. However, what more can the Government do to ensure that trans women and trans men are called for the health service to which they will need to be called, on the basis of biological characteristics that they might retain after getting a gender recognition certificate?

The Scottish Trans Alliance has a mechanism in place to do with community health index鈥擟HI鈥攏umber changes, which has worked in different areas. How could we support such an approach to data gathering?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I have a few questions on a number of topics, convener, but I will be as quick and succinct as I can. Thank you for your patience.

The British Psychological Society has said that medical pathways are not contingent on the GRA, but we have heard concerns about health services for trans people in general and in relation to their transition specifically. For example, there are waiting times of four years in some areas of Scotland; general practitioners could charge fees; and, of course, trans people can have really poor health and mental health outcomes. Cabinet secretary, are you in a position to commit to reviewing health services for trans people? What can you do to ensure that, should they wish to do so, trans people can get timely access to gender identity and support services?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

I appreciate that answer, cabinet secretary, and I understand what implications the bill might or might not have for health services. However, we have heard in a number of evidence sessions about the experience of trans people in the round, and I thought that it would be helpful if we put that question to you today. Indeed, it would be remiss of us if we did not do so.

The bill contains a number of reporting mechanisms, and I note that those outlined for the registrar general for Scotland are considerably more restricted than they are for bodies elsewhere in the UK. I am thinking, for example, of the Ministry of Justice. Are you open to looking at further reporting mechanisms and collection of data on people鈥檚 date of birth, birth status and so on to get a clearer picture of people across Scotland, including on the number of trans people?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Yes, that would be helpful. Thank you.

The children鈥檚 commissioner spoke about the presumption in the children鈥檚 bill that children and young people have capacity to share their views with the court. Would something similar be helpful in this bill?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Pam Duncan-Glancy

Thank you.

We heard from people who transitioned and then transitioned again鈥攚hich is sometimes called detransitioning鈥攖hat there is a lack of clarity in the bill about the process for that. Will you say what you understand the process to be for someone who transitions and then decides to transition again? How would you protect those people from a criminal process? That is, how can you tell the difference between someone making a false declaration and someone seeking to transition again?