���˿���

I heard the evidence that you took in which reference was made to the “legislation salad”. That was a really good description of where things are.

There is a bit of a legislation salad—I cannot disagree with that. A number of bits and pieces of legislation are relevant here, but none of them are delivering the change that we really need to see. We are still in a situation whereby young disabled people are less likely to be in employment and more likely not to be in education or training.

The current salad is not what we need. We need a bit of a different menu, if I am honest. I say that because of some of my earlier points on the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004. The Morgan review also recognised that. It said that the

“Additional Support for Learning legislation is over-dependent on committed individuals”—

that speaks a bit to Ruth Maguire’s earlier question about the implementation gap—

“is fragmented, inconsistent and is not ensuring that all children and young people who need additional support are being supported to flourish and fulfil their potential.”

As I said, the Law Society of Scotland recognised that, too.

There is nothing in the bill that says that the principles into practice framework should no longer exist or that it would not continue. I think that the work that is being done on principles into practice and the work of the Scottish Transitions Forum is excellent, and I suggest that that could dovetail really nicely with some of the powers in the bill for guidance and support. As with any piece of legislation, people will need support, advice and guidance. We need principles on which to support it. Furthermore, we might want to consider putting principles into practice into the legislation, so that it then drives the practice that we need to see.

There are various pieces of legislation. The salad might include, for example, the Social Care (Self-directed Support) (Scotland) Act 2013. The independent review of the legislation said that self-directed support needs to be scaled up. However, that is separate from the bill. If I thought that I could introduce one bill that would solve every problem that disabled people in Scotland face, from when they are born until they die, I would do that.

A number of different bits of legislation are intended to have an impact on disabled people’s lives. However, we do not have something that supports them through a crucial part of their life—from about the age of 14, which is proposed in the bill, up until the age of 26—that, as Bill Scott set out earlier, helps people to pull together all that legislation salad, that gives them rights and support at different parts of their life and that becomes a co-ordinating framework for that management.

Right now, too many families are distressed and are struggling to cope. People’s transitions are being addressed far too late. My inbox is full—as, I am sure, all your inboxes are—of people saying that their son or daughter is leaving school the following week and they do not have a transition plan in place. We really need something that pulls everything together, that co-ordinates things and that works well with the different aspects of the salad that are on the plate.

However, it must also say that we will have a national transitions strategy that will look at what action we need to improve the outcomes of disabled young people; that we will have a plan in place specifically for that group of people, to address the transitions; and that there will be responsibility and accountability at the ministerial level to ensure that people and families can see clearly what their rights are. The professionals working in the area also need to understand what that means, so that they can navigate that salad a bit more easily.

I would appreciate it. Thank you for the question.

I just want to say at the outset that we have done the best that we can to produce the figures in the financial memorandum. However, as with the bill, we are prepared to discuss these things in detail. I have had meetings about this with COSLA, but I note that there are certain points of departure. It has said, for example, that an additional member of staff will be needed to do something, while I have pointed out that existing staff already have such duties and responsibilities. There are, therefore, a few questions about existing responsibilities and the costs attached to them. I would argue that, if we are not already putting in the resources that COSLA says that we need to put in to meet the requirements of disabled people and give them a fighting chance to have a future, we are failing them. I would therefore call that an admission of failure.

As for the pounds and pence in the figures, I want to start with the figure of 4,000 people that we have set out in the financial memorandum. That figure has been based on the definition used in the census with regard to the disabled people who will be able to access a plan under the bill, and it includes the number of ASN pupils as well as the census data. Usually, the census data uses the definition of disabled people in the 2010 act, and we have looked at that and multiplied it by the number of local authorities. Of course, this is where the law of averages comes in. We have seen the evidence, and I know that the committee, too, has written evidence from, I believe, councils such as Glasgow that have said that the figure will be much more, and from other authorities that have said that it will be different. I understand how that can happen with the way that averages are used and the concerns about that.

However, the most important thing to remember is this: if COSLA and local authorities are arguing that it will be significantly more expensive to do this, we have to ask ourselves what we are not doing already that makes this such an additional cost. We have spent a lot of time this morning talking about existing duties, responsibilities and legislation, but we also have organisations such as COSLA saying, “Actually, it’ll cost a lot more if we do this.” Either those responsibilities exist now and councils should be spending money on them, or they do not exist—which is another argument for the bill.

No problem, convener. I do not think that that is a reasonable concern—I think that the opposite will be the case.

Thank you very much for that question. I know that you have a keen interest in the subject and that you are passionate about the rights of young disabled people, and I thank you for the work that you have done on it so far.

The questions that you asked are key. I know that the committee has been looking at the detail of the bill, and I thank it for the work that it has done on the bill. I have looked, but I have not seen another piece of legislation that has done this: at every point in the bill where there is mention of a regulation or a duty on a body, or reference to the development of a strategy or a plan, there is also a provision, almost in the same clause, that says “and must consult”, and that requires the young person and their family to be involved.

Various sections of the bill—sections 7, 11 and 12—cover the issue of ensuring that a person-centred approach is taken. In fact, that is what is most important about the bill. Earlier, I talked about people not wanting to be project managers in their own lives or in the lives of the young people whom they love and care for. It is not that young disabled people want to devolve all responsibility and step aside; it is that they want to spend time thinking about where they want to go, who they want to be and what they want to be. That involves thinking about whether they want to end up in the destination that has been proposed and whether that destination is positive. As an aside, I think that there is a bigger conversation to be had about how we define positive destinations, not just for young disabled people but for all young people in Scotland.

The focus needs to be on those kind of questions, rather than on whether someone has contacted social work and let them know that, in a couple of years’ time, the person might need self-directed support to be put in place or whether someone has had a look at what kind of accommodation or housing will be available if the person goes to college or university. Those are transactional questions about managing a project, as I described. They are not questions such as, “Where do I want to go when I grow up? Do I want to go on a college course?”

I do not want to be disparaging, but I am sure that you have heard in evidence that, in some situations, because of the aspirations that other people have—a plethora of data and research shows that non-disabled people sometimes have lower expectations of disabled people than they themselves have, and I earlier gave a statistic about people’s aspirations being beaten down almost—young disabled people end up being parked on certain courses that they might not want to be on.

That might be because, at the last minute, we rush to find a destination of any description—positive or otherwise, to be honest. What I have heard from people when I have spoken to them about the legislation is that everything is decided far too late. People are often faced with a situation whereby a young person is going to leave school, maybe in a matter of weeks, and they ask, “What are we going to do? We will have to do something. Right, here’s a college course. You can definitely go and do that life skills course,” or whatever.

I am not suggesting that those courses are not appropriate for some people—of course, they are—but we should not end up in a situation in which, because we do not have much time, we are almost panic placing people into situations that are not really positive destinations—they are just destinations.

The bill will bring in that planning process in a more streamlined fashion, starting at an earlier point, giving people a responsibility to get round the table and having somebody outwith the family as the person who makes sure that people have done the bit that they are supposed to do, have phoned the person they said they would phone and have been in touch with whoever. That is important, because it allows the family to focus on what the destination is.

I think that I said that I have met with COSLA, not that I have not—

The outcome was as Bill Scott described: there is a departure when it comes to agreement on the figures. I want to assure you—and I go back to my comments about the National Audit Office and the Law Society—

That is an interesting point. I have had to submit a parliamentary question to try to get that information, because the level 4 information in the budget does not detail specific funding for that. It is difficult for me to tell what is being spent on the transitions of young disabled people and how much the strategy will have behind it. That is the kind of question that is really important.

The costs associated with the bill must be specifically related to the framework that it is putting in place. The financial memorandum specifically details a lot of that in a way that I have not necessarily seen in some Government budgets, because it goes into a significant level of detail. All of us, in our various committees, have just scrutinised the Government’s budget, and it is fair to say that it has been a difficult process. I contend that, because the figures in our financial memorandum are contingent on a given number of people, which relates to a number of hours and, therefore, the costs, it details the rationale for the costs in a way that some Government bills have not done.

No, I do not think that we should wait. In my opening statement, I said that the data that the committee is aware of—young disabled people are three times more likely to end up not in education, employment or training—was the same in 2008, when Inclusion Scotland wrote the briefing that I have in front of me. The data was probably the same prior to that, too.

Disabled people are consistently told, “This next strategy will be the thing. You do not need this in legislation.” I remember that from working on policy when I worked in the area. There was a constant refrain of “The next thing will do it,” but it has not done it yet. Here we are, almost 20 years since we started to work together in the field—I am sorry, Bill; I said that I would not out that number—and the rights of young disabled people still do not deliver the fighting chance that they need. Therefore, I do not think that we should wait for the strategy.

How long does the committee think that disabled people should wait? What does it think is the right timescale to say whether the strategy is or is not working? Right now, there are disabled people in communities who are about to leave school or have already left school with no plan. They cannot wait for the Government’s strategy, which is not yet published.

I fully acknowledge that the Government has committed to that strategy, and I fully believe that it will be published. I take the ministers at their word, but those disabled people cannot wait for that. I urge the committee to consider that question and say how long it thinks that it is acceptable to wait and see whether that strategy works.

I have now met twice with COSLA.

I have met with a range of stakeholders and have done engagement on the bill right across Scotland. Members may have seen the roadshows that I did during the summer, which engaged people who work in the field and those who work for the Department for Work and Pensions and for Skills Development Scotland. I also met them separately from that engagement. During those roadshows, I met teachers, young disabled people and their families and carers.

I have carried out extensive engagement and have probably met most of the stakeholders that you would think should be engaged in the process. I am willing to meet anyone who believes that they have a stake in this and to discuss how best to make it work. I hope that this has come across to the committee: I want to make this work; I want to do the right thing; and I want to ensure that, for example, the financial memorandum is accurate. We have done that to the best of our ability. Bill Scott acknowledged that we would be prepared to discuss other numbers. We spent a lot of time coming to our conclusions. Our rationale is there.

That is how I approach stakeholder engagement. If people want to speak to us, I would be more than happy to speak to them, but I have already engaged with a large number of groups, including the Transitions Forum.

Yes, absolutely, and I thank Graeme Dey for saying that. There is a much bigger picture here. I hope that, through bills that will come to the Parliament, including the incorporation bill at some point, along with a national care service, we can start to look at what needs to change in all those areas, because Graeme Dey is right—so much needs to change.

Fundamentally, what we do not have in legislation is a right for children and young people to have a transitions plan from the age of 14 that follows them through to the age of 26 or beyond. There are regulation-making powers in the bill to do that. It is about focusing on what they need in order to give them a fighting chance at a future, and that is just not there right now. Ruth Maguire highlighted the implementation gap, but I am not surprised that there is an implementation gap, because the existing legislation is not directing professionals and it is not focused on this particular group of people. It is leaving professionals unclear about what their duties are, and it does not include that element of accountability so that young disabled people can hold those people to account.

I have learned a lot since coming to Parliament, in May 2021, and I think that this has probably been the steepest learning curve of my life. One of the things I have learned is that nothing sharpens a minister’s mind more than having to get on their feet in the chamber and talk about something that they have done. Over the past decade—over the past two decades, even—Bill Scott and I have worked together on similar issues. He and I have worked together for a long time—I will not embarrass him by suggesting how long, but it has been a while—and we have constantly been told, “This guidance will do it. This is the bit that will work. This strategy will work. Just focus on what doesn’t work and change that little bit.” However, I am sorry to say that the bit that does not work is the bit that the bill is trying to address. It is about giving disabled people an opportunity—a right in statute to have a plan that gives them a fighting chance at a future.