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I and a few others who are here today went to the Niddrie Road project, and it was great to see the work that is being done and the care in keeping the exterior at the front of the building. I also got the impression that a good deal of consideration had been given to making the interior environment more pleasant not just through the use of insulation but through the use of the space itself, and it was really great to see that there was an opportunity to do that.

Ken Gibb, do you have anything to add with regard to the purpose of the Niddrie Road project? You do not have to, but there might be something else that needs to be said.

Thank you. The next question is for Derek Logie. Please put an R in the chat box if I skip over anyone who wants to come in.

Are there specific cost implications for retrofit projects in rural and island areas? I am sure that there are, so I would love to hear more about those. How do the costs compare? Are the implications recognised sufficiently in existing funding?

I represent the Highlands and Islands region. Are you aware of anything that is happening in more rural areas, or have we not gone there yet?

It is good to know that other things are happening. It feels as though we have so much work to do, so it is good to hear that there are examples out there. Thank you for drawing our attention to that other standard as well.

That is all that we have time for this morning. Clearly, we could talk more, but it was very good to see the building and the work that was being done, and I hope that people will have great homes when the project is done. Thank you for arranging the visit. It was good to meet you both.

I will suspend the meeting to allow a changeover of witnesses.

Welcome back. We continue to take evidence on retrofitting housing for net zero. We welcome our second panel. Bruce Cuthbertson is the chairperson of East Ayrshire Tenants and Residents Federation, Aaron Hill is director of policy and membership at the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, Bryan Leask is the chief executive of Hjaltland Housing Association Ltd and Derek Logie is the chief executive of Rural Housing Scotland. Thank you for joining us.

If you wish to respond to questions or to contribute to the discussion, please put an R in the chat box to indicate that. Unfortunately, we only have 45 minutes together, so we will probably direct our questions to specific witnesses. If you feel that something has not been said in response to a question, please come in, but do not feel that you all have to come in on every question. Clearly, we could speak to you all day on the issues, but we have a time limit.

I will start on costs and financing. I direct my question to Aaron Hill. Do you believe that the Scottish Government is sufficiently aware of the costs of retrofitting homes at the national level?

Thank you for that response. Paul McLennan will now pick up on skills and supply chain issues, which we have already started to touch on.

I have a question that will procure a short answer. Have any of the witnesses looked at the draft national planning framework, which was published earlier this month? If so, do you have any thoughts about how well it will deliver on the stated purpose

“to manage the development and use of land in the long-term public interest”

and its stated aims to

“ tackle and adapt to climate change”

and to

“restore biodiversity loss”?

I believe that, to some degree, farming is missing from the picture. It is a bit of a tome. If you have not had a look at it, I would love to hear from you in the future about your perspectives on it.

Thank you to everybody for what has been a great discussion so far.

I am trying to understand the blocks and resistance among the farming and crofting communities to moving towards organic and regenerative approaches, agroecology and so on. I have picked up a number of things from this conversation and other conversations that I have had outwith this meeting. First, there needs to be knowledge transfer. Baselining and land ownership have not really come up in this conversation yet, but I am aware of issues around tenant farmers, short-term tenancies, tree planting and so on. On farmer indebtedness, it is beginning to strike me that some farmers are probably in debt to their current practices.

That is a set-up for a few questions that I have. One is on whether regenerative farming practices are currently taught in agricultural colleges. Andrew Bauer talked about the five demonstration farms. I wonder whether there is a need for an advisory service that could arrange training on regenerative measures. One of its key responsibilities could be to support a just transition for the whole sector. I have brought up that issue quite a few times in the chamber and in conversations. What would that look like, and how could we start going about it? I know that I am inviting something of a high-level response. Some of this might need to involve the baselining that was mentioned earlier.

Has nobody looked at it?

Thank you for that. Michael Clarke wishes to come in.