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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 12 September 2025
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Displaying 5780 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

I thank both of you very much for those opening statements.

I will open with a general question. What is the main challenge that the local government workforce faces? I address that question initially to Councillor Hagmann.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

You do not need to do that. I am sorry—I should have told you that. We will do it all for you. There is no need to worry about technical stuff.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

Thank you very much. We appreciate your highlighting the issue with planners, because we are certainly aware of that.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

That was really on my mind. You have made a critical point about members’ bills and amendments to Scottish Government bills that come in at stage 3. Has there been enough consultation with local government on that? It will be interesting to see what protocol needs to be put in place to make sure that that happens appropriately.

I am going to move on. Last week, we heard that the creation of a general power of competence for local authorities, as there is in England and Wales, would provide greater opportunities and powers to address challenges. Is that being considered? I ask the minister to start.

10:15  

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

I have a follow-up question. You have said that there is never enough cash and that there is an opportunity for revenue raising. However, earlier, both of you pointed to the need for certainty. We have one-year budgets. Are you discussing a way in which to create some kind of certainty, even within the annual budget settlement, so that councils can plan? Has that come into the fiscal framework discussions yet?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

Thank you. Do you want to add anything, Mr FitzPatrick?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

I want to pick up on another thing that is, in a way, related to workforce planning. I think that it was Simon Cameron who said earlier that it is not what we do but how we do it. One thing that I have become really aware of on this committee is the number of plans that a council has to come forward with because of—to go back to what we were talking about earlier in our conversation—the number of bills, including members’ bills, and associated amendments that are introduced. A bill often contains a requirement for there to be a plan, and it has come up in committee before that there is a level of onerousness in those plans. I am also beginning to wonder whether there is coherence in the plans across various bits of legislation. It is early days, but is that being discussed under the agreement, in particular in your agreed shared programme of activity? Are you looking at creating that coherence?

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

We would welcome that detail being provided at another time.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

It is good to know that those mechanisms and communication forums are in place.

That brings us to the end of our session this morning. I really appreciate your coming today. It has been very useful. I have been sitting here feeling great delight to have both the Scottish Government and COSLA represented in the conversation. That is the fruition of the new deal with local government. It is good to hear that it has been positive and constructive so far. Thank you so much for joining us.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2024-25

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Ariane Burgess

I want to pick up on that. You talk about creating

“an environment where everyone feels valued.”

We have also been using the word “efficiency”. There is something there: there is a bit of a tension around needing to move to efficiencies and creating a service that works in a more efficient way. When I talk to members of the local government workforce, I pick up from them that, sometimes, efficiency runs counter to their feeling that they can do the job in the way that they need to do it. The idea of people-centred services is important in this regard. When we move to too much efficiency in a people-centred service, the two do not quite match up. Have you any thoughts about that?