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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 685 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Earlier, the minister went through all the stages and all the engagement that we have gone through when making the bill. One of the major differences is the 200m distance. Having had a look at the different ways in which services are delivered in Scotland versus in England and Wales and in Northern Ireland, where there are generally standalone clinics, we saw that the hospital sites that we are dealing with are much bigger and have a greater number of people accessing them. Therefore, potentially, a much greater number of people could experience the protests.

As the minister said, we also had a look at how people make their way to their appointments, such as through entrances from car parks or from bus stops, where influence could be exerted to undermine the bill even although people are away from the front door.

We have gone as far as we can in terms of the distance without crossing the line into excluding people more widely than is necessary. Given that our situation is different to that of Northern Ireland, England and Wales, we have got the balance right for the protected features that we have looked at鈥攅nsuring that, outside of that 200m distance around 30 premises in Scotland, people can still make known their views on abortion.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Yes.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Yes.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Private property is included in the zones in England and Wales. I think that we have struck the right balance in this bill. The issue is not one that we have come across so far in testimony, but there could be an undermining effect if private property was not covered, as you have heard from other witnesses. As I have said, I believe that we have struck the right balance in protecting a person鈥檚 right to private conversations and their right to a private life in their own home, while not allowing them to use their property to attempt to influence someone else鈥檚 decision or to undermine the effect that we are trying to have with the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

I think that that, in and of itself, would potentially not be a breach of the bill鈥檚 provisions. In all of the scenarios that have been played out over this evidence session and in the session with the minister, the context of what is happening at the moment in question will be key. I believe that something additional would have to be involved for that to be a breach. As the minister has said, that will be for the police to deal with when they arrive at the scene of a complaint.

Here in committee, we cannot play out every scenario that might arise. As I have said previously, the provisions might not stop someone complaining about such a symbol being displayed, but, in the absence of any further context, I doubt that that is something that the police would take action on.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

That comes back to my point to the convener. The desire was expressed to have the ability to move efficiently. As we all know, parliamentary procedures can鈥攔ightly鈥攖ake some time for the level of evidence taking and so on. I absolutely accept the point that has been made by campaigners, and by you, that a Government that was less sympathetic to treating abortion as healthcare could move in a different direction.

I am more than happy to speak to members between stage 1 and stage 2 about whether we have the balance right or whether we need to do other things to give people comfort that we have the relevant oversight for the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

This is all about proportionality. If it was proportionate to reduce the zones, the Government would have to look at them in the same manner.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

The flexibility in the bill allows us to take targeted approaches, which would depend on where we saw activity in premises that are not currently among the 30 protected premises. We need to ensure that people have the ability to make their views known in other places.

I do not take for granted the potential coverage that could be created if all GP services and pharmacies were included. As I said, we are not seeing protests in such places at the moment. There is sufficient flexibility in the bill to take reasonable and targeted approaches, even for premises that are not currently among the 30 that the bill covers at the moment.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Very few people offered any alternatives, and, often, the alternative that was suggested was simply not to have the zones at all. That probably chimes with some of the testimony that you have heard over the past few weeks, which suggests that, broadly, people鈥檚 position is either that we should have the zones or that we should have no zones.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Can you clarify that a little? Can you give me a scenario?