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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
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Displaying 685 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

A lot of that is about proportionality. One of the things that was cited in the Supreme Court judgment for the Northern Ireland bill was that the punishment involved only fines. That was considered with regard to proportionality. Given that that set a precedent, it would have potentially been unwise to depart from something that was so heavily referenced in the Supreme Court judgment for that bill.

The Scottish Government also has a presumption against short sentences, and offences under this bill would likely fall in that category, so it would be counter-productive to even put that in the bill. As the minister said in the previous session, there is flexibility in the fines system to deal with repeat offenders and people who commit particularly flagrant breaches of the zone.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

No, it would not be. In the first instance, I doubt that many people know what that flag is, but it would not be covered under the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

We would first have to see activity at those premises similar to what we currently see outside hospitals, which we have not seen. That is why such premises are not currently covered, and why we are using the designated services aspect of the Abortion Act 1967. The minister indicated that there would have to be consultation, and we would have to consider how such behaviours were manifesting and to assess their impact, in the way that we have done here, to ensure proportionality and to extend the scope to any other sites.

It is right for us to retain such flexibility, because, as you said, medicine moves on. However, the protesters’ tactics have changed, too, over the years. To leave out such premises would be to tempt fate and would potentially displace protests to those other places. We need to ensure that there would be appropriate consultation if the scope were to cover those premises too, but I do not currently foresee that being needed.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Yes.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Yes.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

Private property is included in the zones in England and Wales. I think that we have struck the right balance in this bill. The issue is not one that we have come across so far in testimony, but there could be an undermining effect if private property was not covered, as you have heard from other witnesses. As I have said, I believe that we have struck the right balance in protecting a person’s right to private conversations and their right to a private life in their own home, while not allowing them to use their property to attempt to influence someone else’s decision or to undermine the effect that we are trying to have with the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

I think that that, in and of itself, would potentially not be a breach of the bill’s provisions. In all of the scenarios that have been played out over this evidence session and in the session with the minister, the context of what is happening at the moment in question will be key. I believe that something additional would have to be involved for that to be a breach. As the minister has said, that will be for the police to deal with when they arrive at the scene of a complaint.

Here in committee, we cannot play out every scenario that might arise. As I have said previously, the provisions might not stop someone complaining about such a symbol being displayed, but, in the absence of any further context, I doubt that that is something that the police would take action on.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

That comes back to my point to the convener. The desire was expressed to have the ability to move efficiently. As we all know, parliamentary procedures can—rightly—take some time for the level of evidence taking and so on. I absolutely accept the point that has been made by campaigners, and by you, that a Government that was less sympathetic to treating abortion as healthcare could move in a different direction.

I am more than happy to speak to members between stage 1 and stage 2 about whether we have the balance right or whether we need to do other things to give people comfort that we have the relevant oversight for the bill.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

This is all about proportionality. If it was proportionate to reduce the zones, the Government would have to look at them in the same manner.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Gillian Mackay

The flexibility in the bill allows us to take targeted approaches, which would depend on where we saw activity in premises that are not currently among the 30 protected premises. We need to ensure that people have the ability to make their views known in other places.

I do not take for granted the potential coverage that could be created if all GP services and pharmacies were included. As I said, we are not seeing protests in such places at the moment. There is sufficient flexibility in the bill to take reasonable and targeted approaches, even for premises that are not currently among the 30 that the bill covers at the moment.