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I can include more on that when we write to you about our considerations in developing the two-dog limit, but I have to say that it largely reflects what we have been told about what is necessary. By the same token, if I am being told that it is not going to work, my mind is not closed to that. After all, I do not want this not to work or its availability to undermine what we are trying to do. That said, where it is needed, I do not want it to be a fudge.

That would be good.

If someone is pursuing an activity and the dogs that they are using flush a rabbit, the bill will apply because it is a wild mammal. The bill is about protection of wild mammals in Scotland. I ask Hugh Dignon to come in.

They are so vast that it is difficult to say. The protection of a lamb may be required in different circumstances—for example, some farmers lamb indoors and some lamb on the hill. Those are different circumstances. It is virtually impossible for me to say how that compares with invasive non-native species on an island.

They are pursued for different reasons, so I cannot—

I thank Jim Fairlie for that question. That is probably one of the most vexed issues, because we are presented with something that is between a rock and a hard place. Jim Fairlie defined that pretty well in drawing on his own experience.

From what I can gauge from the committee’s evidence sessions and from my discussions with stakeholders, some people view the practice as a necessary part of control and management, as Jim Fairlie characterised it. I do not think that there are any obvious alternatives that would be any more palatable.

On the other hand, we have very real concerns, which Jim Fairlie expressed, about the animal welfare implications of putting dogs under ground—implications for not only the wild mammal that the dogs are pursuing, but the terriers themselves.

I have the quote here. Mike Flynn from the SSPCA said:

“I have grave concerns about dogs underground. I see no reason why you would have to put more than one dog down there ... if you get two terriers in a heightened state, they will bite each other—it is not just the fox that they will go for. I have grave concerns about using animals underground, because there is no way to control them.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 29.]

That is really concerning.

The one-dog limit that we have proposed aims to strike a balance, but I am open-minded about where we go with that and how people think the matter should be dealt with.

I have mentioned it a couple of times now but, just for clarity, I point out that the principal reason for the licensing scheme being tagged on to two of the exceptions is that we recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that in certain circumstances the use of two dogs will not enable that lawful activity of flushing to waiting guns. Indeed, he specifically said that terrain—for example, hill ground or thick forests—was one of the reasons that it might not be workable.

In recognition of that, we have introduced the licensing scheme as an exception to an exception. We talk a lot about balance; I want all of us to get to a point at which we have a licensing scheme that is workable and available to those who have no other option. If, say, a farmer needs a licence during a busy lambing period, they should not be unduly burdened by that. At the same time, however, we cannot allow the system to become so weak that we are right back to where we were in 2002, with licences just being applied for readily without anybody knowing why—or, indeed, knowing what is actually happening in the countryside. That is what we need to avoid.

The timings reflect the Scottish Government’s understanding of practice. For example, a farmer might see evidence that there are foxes around. They might be able to undertake control measures with two dogs, but if they cannot, and if there are no other options, they will be able to apply for a 14-day licence to deal with the issue. As we understand it, that is the timescale in which it should be possible to do that. In the longer-term projects that we have observed—including the stoats on Orkney, which are being namechecked a lot today—more time is required. That said, the two-year period is a maximum, not a general rule.

Police Scotland made an important point. It had not been raised with me previously but, now that it has been, I will consider how we can accommodate the training of police dogs.

That is an absolutely fair point. Just as we work with NatureScot on the financial implications, we will work with Police Scotland. The Scottish SPCA plays an important role in helping Police Scotland to manage some resource issues, including the rehoming of animals. We are due to undertake some work to review the powers of the Scottish SPCA that pertain to wildlife crime, which might play into some of that.

I thank the committee for having us today.

Although it has been unlawful for 20 years, we know that mammals continue to be chased and killed by packs of dogs in Scotland, whether inadvertently when people undertake management or deliberately when people participate in illegal activities such as hare coursing. My intention is to ensure that what has been unlawful for 20 years cannot persist and to deliver legislation that clearly sets out the purposes for which dogs can be used and the conditions that must be adhered to when they are used.

In his review, Lord Bonomy noted that the existing legislation lacks clarity and is unduly complicated and that that has resulted in difficulties in bringing prosecutions under the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. I was pleased to hear his comments to the committee that he considers the bill to be

“a very well-crafted piece of legislation”

and that it

“should be a great incentive for better enforcement of the law”.—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 15 June 2022; c 41.]

As well as clarifying the legal position, the bill introduces a two-dog limit for searching for, stalking and flushing wild mammals. That is an important additional safeguard to reduce the risk of foxes and other wild mammals being chased and killed by packs of dogs. It will significantly reduce the risk that, if dogs are not under control, whether inadvertently or deliberately, it will lead, as it has done, to their chasing and killing mammals.

The vast majority of foxes in Scotland are controlled without the use of dogs. The bill allows for the use without licences of two dogs to protect livestock. However, I recognise, as Lord Bonomy did, that there are circumstances in which two dogs will not be sufficient to undertake the lawful activity of flushing a mammal to waiting guns. That can be because of terrain in thick forest or on hill ground, for example. Because of that, the bill includes provision for more than two dogs to be used via a licensing scheme if it can be demonstrated that there is no other solution.

I will be clear on two points. First, applying for a licence should be the exception. NatureScot, as the licensing authority, would need to scrutinise applications. Secondly, where a licence is merited for use, we are determined that it will be workable, reasonable and available.

We will get into more detail on it in the discussion, but the other main policy provision in the bill is the banning of trail hunting. The reasons for that are twofold. First, trail hunting poses a significant risk to wild mammals. Dogs can be diverted from a laid trail on to a natural trail and start chasing and killing wild mammals. Secondly, we know from evidence down south that trail hunting is used as a cover for unlawful hunting. Therefore, we want to take the opportunity not just to close historical loopholes but to rise to the opportunity of preventing others from opening.

I have been following the committee sessions, and I am aware of some of the discussions that have arisen with regard to the bill. It is very helpful for me to hear those discussions, and I am glad to have the opportunity to hear more of them today.

I understand that the control of wild mammals is a controversial issue, and I know that the committee has heard strong views on either side of the debate. The bill is principally about pursuing the highest possible animal welfare standards in Scotland, but on the understanding that we are a rural nation and access to legitimate control must be possible.

I will leave it there, convener. Thank you.