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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 29 August 2025
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Displaying 3543 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. That is an interesting perspective.

I will now open up questions to members. I will bring in Russell Findlay and then Sharon Dowey.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I will come back to you, Sharon, if we have time, which is very limited.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We are just coming up to time. Thank you, Lady Elish, for joining us today. That was a very interesting and informative session, and I very much appreciate it.

10:55 Meeting continued in private until 11:03.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I wonder whether I could follow up a line of questioning from Pauline McNeill about misconduct proceedings relating to former officers. In its review of the process of police officer dismissals in 2023, the Home Office notes that the process of continuing misconduct proceedings against former officers

“is an expensive, time-consuming process which draws forces’ resources away from dealing with those individuals who are still serving.â€

I am interested in your views on that conclusion and your reflections on why it is important that there is a provision in the bill on misconduct proceedings against former officers.

10:45  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is interesting. I have a final, quick question from Rona Mackay, and then we will have to draw the session to a close.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

As we have been considering the bill, I have found myself becoming interested in what brings a police officer or member of staff into the process, whether it is in relation to a complaint against them or an allegation of misconduct. What is it about the demands of the job, the environment or the circumstances that results in them ending up in that conduct space?

Pauline McNeill spoke about a relatively high number of incidents involving allegations of police assault. Given your longevity in the world of justice, I am very interested in your observations on what is pressing down on police officers or staff that puts them in a position where they are facing a complaint or an allegation of misconduct. It is a big question, but I am interested in what the societal factors might be.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill:Stage 1

Meeting date: 16 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is a comprehensive and helpful opening response.

I would like to stay with the statutory duty of candour that is included in the bill, on which you have set out your views. The Scottish Government has chosen to introduce that duty in the bill, but not a duty of co-operation or a duty to provide the Police Investigation and Review Commissioner with a statutory power to compel officers to attend for interview within a reasonable timescale, as your review recommended. Do you agree with the position that the Government has taken? Is the way in which the duty of candour has been laid out in the bill sufficient to ensure the level of co-operation that would be required to allow investigations to be undertaken and concluded timeously?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. That leads on quite nicely to another piece of work—I am stepping outside the bill for a moment, but I suppose that it is indirectly relevant.

You will be aware that the Scottish Parliament Finance and Public Administration Committee is doing a piece of work on the commissioner landscape in Scotland, and is taking evidence on the effectiveness of commissioners and their role.

A number of new commissioner posts have been proposed. However, one of the things that the finance committee has been looking at is why we need commissioners in the first place. What is happening or not happening that means that we need them? Are public bodies not fulfilling some of their duties around the conduct of staff or is there perhaps a wider societal issue, such as the cost of living crisis, that is having an impact on the public generally?

That is a really big question but I am interested in your perspective. You have a very demanding commissioner role—there are no doubts about that. Do you have any comment on that wider analysis or the question around the role of commissioners? Do we need them? [Laughter.] I know that you will say yes, and that is absolutely fine.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is helpful. I must admit that I was unaware of the difference in the threshold in respect of police officers being reported to the Crown. It is helpful to understand that better.

Are you saying that, where more evidence obviously emerges in respect of an individual who has been reported to the Crown in relation to an incident, that would be passed to you for further consideration?

11:30  

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 15 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I presume that, once you have a report and have had time to consider it, the Crown Office processes the report in the same way as it processes any other report in terms of the threshold for evidence that is required under Scots law.