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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 29 August 2025
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Displaying 3543 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I would like to bring in Nicky Page. You have not had a chance to contribute yet, but you might have a view on that point.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Rona Mackay has a supplementary on that topic.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I am assuming that we are talking about a very small number of applicants and officers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Good morning, and welcome to the 20th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning.

Our business is the continuation of our stage 1 evidence on the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. We have two panels of witnesses. We will hear first from the Scottish Police Authority.

I give a warm welcome to Fiona McQueen, who is the vice-chair of the Scottish Police Authority board, Katharina Kasper, who is the chair of the SPA complaints and conduct committee, and Mr Robin Johnston, who is the head of legal at the SPA. I thank them for agreeing to provide evidence to the committee.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow up to 80 minutes for the evidence session.

I invite Fiona McQueen to make some brief opening remarks.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

While we are on the subject of policy, practice and process, and sticking with the PIRC, I note that the bill would allow the PIRC to undertake the preliminary assessment of misconduct allocations against senior officers. The committee has received evidence suggesting that either the PIRC or an independent body should carry out that assessment for complaints against all ranks of officers. As members of the public tend to deal with rank officers, rather than senior officers, do you think that, if that initial assessment proposal were extended to all officers, that might enhance public confidence in the complaints system鈥攚hich Russell Findlay touched on, albeit in a different context? Perhaps Mr Johnston might like to come in with any thoughts on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you, that was really interesting.

Before I bring other members back in, I note that, on the proposal for a statutory code of ethics, some witnesses have questioned what difference a code of ethics will have if there is no sanction for breaching it. I would be very interested in hearing whether you have a view on that and whether such a provision should be considered at stage 2.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Our next panel of witnesses is from Police Scotland. I welcome to the meeting Alan Speirs, the deputy chief constable, professionalism, strategy and engagement; Helen Harrison, chief superintendent and head of the professional standards department; and Nicky Page, head of human resources. Thank you all for providing written evidence to the committee.

I intend to allow about 80 minutes for this evidence session. I will begin with a question that I put to our witnesses from the Scottish Police Authority. Witnesses will probably be aware that we have heard evidence from members of the public who have described what seems to have been an inconsistent and, in some cases, unacceptable standard of response when they made a complaint to Police Scotland about the conduct of officers. In addition, we have heard that, when police officers are the subject of a complaint, the way that they are treated falls short of what is expected. One officer, of whom witnesses will probably be aware of, shared his very distressing story with us.

Police Scotland has a lot of work to do internally on handling complaints; that is important because the majority of complaints are probably dealt with internally. I want to ask about the provisions of the bill and about what is required to improve the system of complaints handling. Is there an internal process whereby learning from complaints handling is used? Is there work to monitor complaints trends and issues that arise from them, and is any measuring done so that action can be taken to make changes and so that you can ultimately intervene in complaints of a type that reoccur? Those questions are about quality assurance and the response when complaints are made internally. I ask DCC Speirs to start.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. I will now bring in other members.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

We have about 10 minutes left. I invite Fulton MacGregor to ask questions, followed by Russell Findlay.

Criminal Justice Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 May 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I will step outside the bill for a moment. I have become interested in what sort of conduct brings officers to the attention of the PSD or, if it is a higher bar, the PIRC. We understand police assault and other traditional types of allegations. I am thinking more about the issues and challenges that are bearing down on police officers in the 21st century. Are you seeing any shift in the sorts of issues that are impacting police officers and staff compared to, say, 10 years ago?