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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 June 2025
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Displaying 3500 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I am mindful of the time. I will let the witnesses respond to that, but there has been a lot of discussion of the whole-system approach, which both our witnesses have spoken about at length, and reference was made earlier to the PCS report. Therefore, given what we have already covered, there would be value in written follow-up responses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I take it that that makes it quite difficult to put a figure on it. You spoke about unseen costs鈥攁 lot of what you have set out are impacts or outcomes that I imagine are quite difficult to quantify in budgetary terms. From what you are saying, presumably there is quite a significant budgetary impact, in relation to not only the practical aspects that we have spoken about but some of the things that are not quite so obvious. Is that fair to say?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Give your voice a break. Thank you for that helpful opening scene setting.

I will pick up on the prison population, which is pretty much uppermost in all our minds. We recognise the significance of the challenges that that places on the Scottish Prison Service. At 25 October, the prison population was sitting at 8,226, and, as you say, it is expected to rise, with several prisons already over capacity. What are the implications for the Prison Service arising from those increasing numbers鈥攕pecifically the budgetary implications that we are looking at today? I know from your submission that there are practical things, such as the cost of food, social care, healthcare and so on. It would be interesting to hear a wee bit more detail on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

That is very interesting.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Liam Kerr has a supplementary question.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

Gosh, there was a lot in that answer, but it was very helpful.

I will bring in John Logue before l ask a follow-up question about multiyear funding.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

One standout point in your submission related to the significant pressures arising from investigations of deaths and the increasing number of post-mortems. That point certainly caught my attention. It is helpful that both your submissions are very detailed. There is a lot for members to ask about, so thank you for that answer, Mr Logue.

I will come back to funding provision and multiyear funding. You might be aware that a similar process of pre-budget scrutiny has been undertaken by the Finance and Public Administration Committee, which has heard strong evidence from the Scottish Fiscal Commission and Audit Scotland that the Scottish Government should adopt a longer-term approach to budgeting, including multiyear plans. That is nothing new for this committee. Obviously, that would offer greater flexibility for managing challenges, balancing future needs and so on.

Do you agree with that analysis? I am interested in hearing about how a multiyear funding approach would support Scottish courts and tribunals.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I will give you the final word if you wish, Mr Logue. You do not have to add anything.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

For our next panel of witnesses, we are joined by representatives of the Scottish Prison Service. I extend a warm welcome to Teresa Medhurst, chief executive; Linda Pollock, deputy chief executive; and Gerry O鈥橠onnell, director of finance. I intend to allow about 75 minutes for the session. I ask for concise questions and responses, and for brevity, as there is a lot to get through and a lot that we are interested in.

In addition to papers 1 and 2, which members already have, I refer members to the written submission from His Majesty鈥檚 Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland, which was circulated separately and is relevant to our questions.

I will kick things off with general opening questions for Teresa Medhurst. In your view, what are the main financial challenges that are facing the Scottish Prison Service? What advice has the SPS given to the Scottish Government on the budget resources that are needed for prisons in 2025-26?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2025-26

Meeting date: 6 November 2024

Audrey Nicoll

I have a couple of questions that I am interested in picking up on from the submission from HMIPS. Theresa Medhurst touched on Castle Huntly prison in earlier evidence. I note that, in the recently published thematic review on progression, there was a reference to significant improvements being required in individualised case management, and in training and development of staff, if people in prison are to progress to less secure conditions鈥攕uch as in Castle Huntly鈥攊n preparation for release, thereby optimising the benefits of the underused capacity. Are there specific blockages or challenges鈥攆or example, around staff training and development鈥攖hat are adding to that and which, from a budgetary point of view, are of interest to the committee?