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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 September 2025
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Displaying 3579 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you very much for those opening responses. I will ask a follow-up question and put it to the three of you in the same order as before.

In the interests of having an accessible and transparent justice system in Scotland, how would you define “not proven”? That there is no definition of the not proven verdict has come up in previous evidence sessions. How would you define “not proven” if its meaning were to be set out in legislation, for example?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

It is probably helpful to point out that the mock jury research that we heard about from Professor Fiona Leverick and Eamon Keane is one part of the evidence that the committee will take. I do not think for one minute that the bill’s provisions are based solely on the findings of mock jury research. Thank you for that helpful response.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

If no other members want to come in, I will draw the session to a close and thank the witnesses for attending this morning.

That completes our agenda item. We now move into private session.

12:34 Meeting continued in private until 13:09.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Good morning, and welcome to the 33rd meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning.

Our main item of business is to continue to take evidence on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. Today, we will continue phase 2 of our scrutiny and focus specifically on part 4 of the bill, which covers the abolition of the not proven verdict and changes to jury sizes and majorities.

We are joined by Sandy Brindley, who is chief executive of Rape Crisis Scotland, and Mr Joe Duffy. I welcome you both.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I intend to allow around 60 minutes for this evidence session.

I will begin with a general opening question. I will go to Sandy Brindley first and then to Mr Duffy. We understand that you support a move to a two-verdict system and the removal of the not proven verdict. What are your reasons for that position?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

We are coming up to our end time. Is there anything else that we have not covered in our questions that either of the witnesses would like to add before we close our meeting?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you. I now invite other members to ask their questions, starting with Fulton MacGregor.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Okay. Thanks very much.

I will go back to Sandy Brindley. In your submission, it is very clear that your experience of working with survivors is that they feel that the not proven verdict does not necessarily support them. They feel that it is unclear and confusing, and they feel let down by it. However, you also comment that some survivors derived some comfort from a verdict of not proven rather than not guilty. Is it therefore fair to say that that is not reflective of the majority of survivors’ views, as you understand them?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Thank you both for attending.

Our next meeting, on 13 December, will continue with evidence taking on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill. We will hear from representatives of the legal profession and the Crown Office.

Meeting closed at 10:57.  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Okay. Thanks very much.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Audrey Nicoll

Mr Duffy, in your submission, you say:

“The vast majority of people are totally unaware of the court system and do not know that the Not Proven Verdict exists.”

Earlier, you spoke about the confusion about what exactly that verdict means. I am interested in your thoughts on whether it would be more effective if the not proven verdict was better explained to people, so that their understanding was clearer, and whether that, in itself, might make the use of the not proven verdict more effective.