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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 788 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

That is a really important question. Rather than ask Johanna Irvine to reply at this point, I think that we will write to the committee with a response to it.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

The 200m abortion safe zone was constructed after a lot of evidence was gathered around each of the facilities. The zones protect all access into the facilities, including bus stops that the women might use.

If there are other demonstrations within that area, which is what we have been talking about, it could be deemed to be clear that they are not about women who are accessing abortion services, because the legislation has designated that safe zone.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

Are you asking about the individual seeking abortion?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

No, because that is something that they are doing themselves. They are not trying to impede, alarm or distress anyone else, which is what the bill captures.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

I recognise that that point was raised in the course of the evidence sessions. The bill is very narrow, however, and deals specifically with abortion services and the safe access zone for abortion. From my perspective, and in all the work that we have done, we have been clear that there is no mission creep in the bill: it is specifically for those who protest about abortion services.

During one evidence session, a question was raised about whether there could be picketing or leafleting of staff members. We highlighted the picketing provisions in the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, and we have said that they are not overridden by the bill. The work around picketing, such as allowing it to take place and informing people that there could be a picket, would all be okay.

The Eljamel demonstration outside Parliament was indeed shocking. I was not at it myself, but I heard about it. I cannot talk for the women who are accessing abortion services, but it has been clear from the evidence that women have given that the protests or vigils that they find most upsetting are those that specifically relate to abortion.

09:15  

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

I believe so. We have heard evidence from Alina鈥擨 think that that was her name鈥攁bout the impact that silent prayer had. There is a possibility that it can influence people, but I am also looking at this from the perspective of how it can intimidate people.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

This is something that I have been talking about with my officials a lot. We have to remember that, with any activity that is captured by offences, it will all be dependent on the facts and the circumstances happening around that activity.

We have spoken to Police Scotland and the Crown Office about this, and we will continue to do so as the bill is developed, but I think that what we are looking at is the context and impact of an activity. Indeed, the key element of the bill is women鈥檚 ability to access abortion services safely.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

As I said to Tess White, prayer within a church or chapel within a safe zone is not captured by the legislation; neither are conversations that happen within private dwellings. Anything that is public facing would be captured, including, for example, somebody standing in the garden of their house handing leaflets over the hedge. What occurs within buildings, such as conversations, is not captured, but anything that could have an impact in the safe zone is. I think it was Professor Cameron who gave the example of a projection on to the Chalmers sexual health centre from another building. If that were to happen again, it would be captured.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

Wherever they are, churches often have signs outside them. The example that you have just given of a sign about repenting of sins is quite a common, which I view as not being intimidating. However, the signs that we have seen at abortion demonstrations are more so. There is a judgment to be made about whether something is seen as intimidating and whether the intent is of harassing, causing alarm or distress.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Jenni Minto

That is a really important question. I cannot overemphasise the amount of work that officials have done in ensuring that we get the right size of zone. I know that Gillian Mackay鈥檚 consultation proposed 150m. Since seeing the results of that consultation, we have looked at the areas that 150m zones would capture. For example, some stakeholders commented on the fact that some people will catch buses to health centres or hospitals, and feel that bus stops are places where there could be protests or vigils. Therefore, we mapped all 30 facilities to ensure that we would cover an appropriate size of area.

I note that, when it was looking at the Northern Ireland legislation, the Supreme Court said that zones could be extended to up to 250 metres.

It is also important to recognise that, in Scotland, abortion services are, in the main, carried out in hospitals where people are accessing other services, which is different from what happens in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, where there are specific centres.

09:45