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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 31 December 2025
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Displaying 1897 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. My question goes back to the top level. How did we get to this point? I am surprised by the financial memorandum’s complete lack of what I regard as fundamentals. We have covered a number of those issues so far, in this session. I would like to understand why that is the case. I understand that the financial memorandum has to be produced alongside the bill, but how did we end up with an FM that does not even begin to cover the fundamentals? Speaking personally, and based on my experience, which is mostly in business, I say that I have no confidence whatever that the FM represents any level of accuracy or, therefore, of value for money. How did we get here?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Therefore, would the change not be a benefit to those defined benefit schemes, given that the liability lies with the provider? We have massive inflation, and I imagine that a lot of pension schemes are feeling somewhat nervous. To my mind, losing a lot of people would be a benefit from a local council perspective, albeit that I accept that it is a problem for the TUPE scheme. Am I misunderstanding something?

12:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

I used to work in a pensions company, so I am with you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

So, it is policy driven—I understand that. You are correct that the amalgamation of health and social care has been a wish for a long time. However, that different approach has clearly introduced significant other risks, even with apportioning or estimating costs up front. The ranges that you have set out are very wide.

Let me put it this way: if it was your personal money, you would not be risking it. How will you mitigate the risk of there being significant cost overruns in a multitude of areas? My colleagues have mentioned issues with VAT, defined benefit pensions, assets, staff, double running, IT and even uncertainty about the governance of boards. Each one of those issues would introduce additional costs. How will you mitigate the risks in the process that you have adopted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

You make a point that reflects my personal experience, which is that a programme plan is only ever accurate after the programme has finished. That is the standard issue and risk for all the spend. What you are describing makes that more likely, rather than less likely. You are talking about the business cases in the areas that you mentioned earlier, but only at that point will we start, from a financial perspective, to get a sense of the risks to the public purse. There are concerns about parliamentary scrutiny, on which I absolutely back up what my colleague, Mr Mason, said.

I looked in the financial memorandum specifically for the word “risk”. It is mentioned only twice. However, this is screaming out that there are huge risks, to me. It might be that you are under pressure in terms of timescales in which to deliver, but from my perspective of financial scrutiny, I am seeing a blank cheque. That is deeply worrying in respect of the public purse.

If you had had a choice, would you have produced that financial memorandum or would you have wanted more detail and further breakdowns based on the policy provisions? Were you pushed to bring forward the financial memorandum?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. I read all your submissions with great interest, and I share your concerns about some of the issues that have already been touched on around VAT, pensions, assets, governance and so on. In the previous evidence session, I added in some of my own concerns. However, in the interests of giving every panel an equally hard time, I want to ask you some questions.

Any change that removes or is perceived to remove responsibilities is always resisted by the affected body. To what extent are you simply resistant to change and protecting your own turf, if you like?

Sarah Watters smiled, so she can go first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

When do you anticipate baselining your estimated costs, so that you can nail your colours to the mast a bit more? At what point will that occur?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

To build on that, we talked earlier about economies of scale. I think that Paul Manning mentioned the loss of economies of scale to local government. However, a corollary of that is the benefit of economies of scale to the Scottish Government. I want to ask about that because, all the way through this session, we have commented on public sector funding and our being in a precarious position, and we do that continually.

What specific economies of scale can you see with at least some of the proposals for the Scottish Government and therefore the public purse? It strikes me—I have put this on the record before—that having 32 local authorities with duplicate functions across the board is not necessarily the most efficient way of working. I am interested in your thoughts about where the economies of scale are for the Scottish Government rather than the disbenefit of economies of scale for you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

The financial memorandum does not mention economies of scale.