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Local Government Committee, 07 Mar 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, March 7, 2000

Official Report 280KB pdf

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Ethical Standards in Public Life etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

We now move to discussion of the Ethical Standards in Public Life etc (Scotland) Bill. We will take evidence from the Scottish Council for Single Homeless, after which we may take a comfort break before moving on to deal with the petitions. There is coffee in the lounge, but I ask members not to take a long break—the longer the committee takes for a comfort break, the longer we will be here.

I apologise for keeping our witnesses waiting—the ministers do not know when to stop talking. We have before us today representatives of the Scottish Council for Single Homeless. Robert Aldridge is the director and John Dickie is the head of the youth housing unit. We ask you to say a few words before I open up the discussion for questions from the committee.

Thanks very much for providing us with the opportunity to give evidence. I would like to concentrate, unsurprisingly, on section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, the area in which the Scottish Council for Single Homeless has most interest. In particular, I would like to address subsection (1)(a), which deals with services that are provided directly or funded by local authorities in the context of the promotion of homosexuality. In our view, the section has both direct and indirect effects on the homelessness of gay men and lesbians. I will concentrate on four areas in which the section has an effect.

The first issue is that gay men and lesbians are at an increased risk of homelessness. From the limited research that has been carried out—the fact that the area is under-researched speaks volumes—we know that a high proportion of gay men and lesbians who were interviewed in various social surveys have experienced homelessness, and that their sexuality has contributed to that.

Why are they particularly at risk? There are three main factors that lead to the risk of homelessness. First, some lesbians and gay men are harassed both in and out of their homes, by neighbours or others. Secondly, young people are sometimes thrown out by their parents when their sexuality becomes known. Thirdly, some people lose their homes through pressure from those with whom they share accommodation. In our view, those situations result indirectly from the climate of discrimination and prejudice to which section 2A is a contributory factor. This is an issue that local authorities must deal with openly.

The second issue concerns what happens once someone becomes homeless. Research shows that gay men and lesbians perceive that they will not get support from their landlord or housing provider because of their sexuality. They feel that if they have to explain that they became homeless because of their sexuality, they will not get a sympathetic hearing. As a result, many hide their sexuality. Recent research by the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations shows that 50 per cent of the gay men and lesbians whom it interviewed felt that they had to conceal their sexuality in order to keep their house. There is a perception that there is, at best, apathy among housing providers towards dealing with problems that are faced by gay men and lesbians, particularly towards providing appropriate housing and dealing with harassment due to sexuality. It is unclear to what extent that is a direct result of not wishing to appear to promote homosexuality, and how much it is simply part of the general climate that gay men and lesbians endure.

I have mentioned the general social climate, which is the third issue that I want to raise. We believe that the section helps to engender an atmosphere that reinforces prejudice and discrimination and that leads gay men and lesbians to hide their sexuality when they are at risk. The sense that their sexuality is unacceptable leaves them at greater risk and more vulnerable. Often they neither receive support from their family and friends nor feel that they will receive support from the statutory agencies.

Finally, the section has an impact on those who provide support services to homeless people. Because people do not know what the section means, they err on the side of caution. Let us take the example of a young homosexual homeless man who, as part of a project that is being run by a local authority, confides in a counsellor that he is homosexual. If that adviser advises the young person that many people are gay, that that is normal and that many gay people find happy, settled relationships, is he promoting homosexuality? Who knows? If the counsellor helps the young person to come out—to accept that he is homosexual and to have pride in his homosexuality—is he promoting homosexuality by doing that? The fact is, we do not know. From the anecdotal evidence that we have received, the effect of the legislation appears to be that people err very much on the side of caution, because they feel that the section is a sword of Damocles hanging over the way in which they deal with such matters.

Together, the four issues that I have outlined lead to an increased risk of homelessness for gay men and lesbians and a decreased ability for services to respond effectively to their needs. In effect, section 28 delivers a double whammy: first, it reinforces the prejudice and fear that lead friends and family to reject and isolate young gay people; and, secondly, it leaves services funded by local authorities unclear about what support they can provide.

John, do you wish to add anything at this stage?

No, Robert has covered what I wanted to say.

Has there been a demonstrable increase in the proportion of gays and lesbians who are homeless since the Local Government Act 1988 was introduced?

It is difficult to tell, as this is a very unresearched area. All that we know is that the recent research that has been carried out showed a higher incidence of homelessness among the young gay men and lesbians who were interviewed than we would have expected.

Do you have a feel as to whether this is a historical problem or one that has got worse since the act was introduced?

As far as I am aware, no research was carried out into the problem before the act was introduced, which makes it difficult to take a comparative view.

If the existing legislation is repealed, do you feel that other safeguards should be introduced to reassure parents?

I do not see what additional safeguards are required when we are talking about housing provision and projects that are designed to help young homeless people. We can rely on the professionalism of those who provide counselling and advice services or services in emergency hostels to deal appropriately with young people. It is important that service providers have the freedom to assess the young person's needs and to deal with those needs appropriately and in accordance with their professional judgment. I do not think that there is any danger of people promoting homosexuality—I do not understand what that term means.

But that applies to you at present. The legislation as it stands relates to schools and children at school—not to housing organisations such as yours.

The legislation as it stands is in two parts—I was not directing my remarks at the part that deals with promoting homosexuality in schools. The other part—section 2A(1)(a)—says that a local authority shall not

"intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality".

In our view, that relates to services that are funded, or partly funded, by local authorities, some of which are for homeless young people or young people at risk.

Can you give us a flavour of your network, so that we can evaluate the validity of your case? Some people on the other side of the argument might suggest that you are a small bunch of do-gooders saying your piece. I know that the research is not scientific—it is a rather chaotic area—but it would be useful to know whether you represent widely held views. Whom do you represent?

The SCSH is the national membership organisation for individuals and organisations who provide services to homeless people. Our membership includes a wide range of organisations and individuals, such as most local authorities, a large number of housing associations, a large number of voluntary organisations that provide a range of services to homeless people, and interested individuals and professionals. Our members requested us to raise the issue of section 2A as a priority, because they believe that it is important that the section is repealed in order to enable them to deliver their services to young people without that sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.

I wish to ask a slightly broader question about homeless young people. We are conscious that the debate has shifted slightly away from a discussion about the promotion of homosexuality in schools to the consequences of not actively promoting marriage.

During evidence taken by the Equal Opportunities Committee, the argument was put that young people are more likely to become homeless if they come from families that are not traditional, married families. One figure quoted to the Equal Opportunities Committee is that only 2 per cent of young homeless people come from families where the husband and wife live together as a family. What do you view as the common features of young people who become homeless? Are they more likely to become homeless if they are brought up by same-sex couples or if their parents never married?

The most significant features of young homeless people are disruption in their family life and lack of support. A large proportion have a history of being in local authority care—it has been well documented that around 39 to 40 per cent of all young people who approach services because they are homeless have a history of local authority care. Therefore, it is quite correct to say that those who have come from a less traditional family background, if you like, are likely to end up homeless. However, that does not mean that those who come from a traditional family background will not end up homeless. A range of people end up homeless.

If you define a less traditional background as families that are disrupted.

People are taken into local authority care for a number of reasons. We can go through them. Research shows that where a step-parent is involved, there seems to be a higher risk of people becoming homeless. The step-parent is not necessarily at fault—the cause is the disruption in family life. There is a range of family types in Scotland and people are emerging from those—we must deal with reality rather than the ideal situation.

A concern is that a focus on the idea of a particular family relationship and its structure overlooks what can go on in family relationships. A significant factor among young homeless people is the amount of abuse that has gone on in their life beforehand. That can happen in traditional family relationships. One of our concerns is to avoid the risk of undermining even further the young person who has had that kind of experience by focusing on the structure of their family rather than the experience of what the family was like; whatever the family structure, it is what goes on in it that is important and leads to people becoming homeless.

Would it be reasonable to say that abuse, rather than the sexuality of the abuser, is the significant factor?

Absolutely.

I do not think that there is any evidence to show that same-sex partners are a greater risk factor in leading to homelessness than partners of different sex.

I note from your submission that you reckon that 20 per cent of the people who are homeless experience homelessness because of other people's reaction to their sexuality. We are discussing section 2A today, but its repeal is not going to change that. In the context of your experience, what else can change attitudes?

It will be a long, slow process because there is an attitude in Scotland that discriminates and creates prejudice against gay men and lesbians. When people have a number of other problems in their lives and are dealing with their homosexuality, we need to make it as easy as possible for them to deal with that. This must go right through our institutions—local authorities must ensure that they are welcoming to gay men and lesbians and we must ensure that we value gay men and lesbians as equals in society. It is as simple as that, but it will be a long process before we reach that point.

The clause reinforces the fear and prejudice that lead to young gay men and women being made to leave their home or being harassed out of accommodation when they find it. It creates the social climate that encourages that to happen. Its repeal is a step towards reducing that possibility rather than the answer.

I am interested in how people's sexuality causes them to be homeless. I am impressed by a lot of the information that is in your submission to the committee. I realise that you cannot put a precise figure on it, but can you give a rough estimate of what proportion of homeless people are gay or lesbian?

Homeless services do not monitor people's sexuality. However, we have evidence that is based on our members' experience and on what services that work with young homeless people say. The feeling is that there is a disproportionate number of young gay men and women among the homeless population. I spent five years working directly with a local charity that worked with young homeless people, and I was struck by the number of young gay men and women who had become homeless because of their sexuality. The reaction that their sexuality evoked in private rented housing, shared housing or hostel accommodation also made it more difficult for them to establish themselves in new homes.

There is a kind of vicious circle here. Because people feel reluctant to declare their sexuality, it will be under-recorded. That makes it difficult for us to measure how great the proportion of homeless people who are homosexual men and lesbians is. The only real evidence that we have comes from the surveys that have been carried out among gay men and lesbians. They show that a very high proportion of them have experienced homelessness. That leads us to suspect—we cannot say more than that—that a disproportionately high number of gay men and lesbians become homeless.

I follow the logic of your argument. This is a chicken-and-egg situation. Obviously, people do not want to announce that they are gay because they would be discriminated against, but from our perspective it would be interesting to know whether homelessness is two or three times higher among gay men and lesbians than in the background population, as that would help us assess the level of discrimination they face and how it impacts on them.

Recent research in Glasgow among gays and lesbians of all ages found that 34 per cent had experienced homelessness. That is higher than the figure that would emerge from a survey of a cross-section of the population.

What would the figure be for heterosexuals or people who have not declared their sexuality?

Last year, about 45,000 people applied to local authorities in Scotland for help because they were homeless—out of about 2 million households. The 34 per cent among gays and lesbians suggests that a far higher proportion of them have experienced homelessness than is the case among the population at large.

I want to ask you about the Scottish Executive's new proposals, which put the onus on local authorities to have regard to the welfare and development of young people in their charge. Do you believe that those proposals will benefit your work, or do you take a neutral stance on them?

I was a little confused about the meaning of "stable family life" in the proposed new section. Everybody is in favour of people having a stable family life. I hope that we will be clear about what that means. If we are replacing one section that is vague and difficult to understand with another that is vague and difficult to understand, we will face similar problems of interpretation.

We welcome the promotion of the welfare of children through legislation. It is important to recognise that, for many young people, homelessness does not start at age 16; many have a history of running away from home at a much earlier age. It is important that any services that are provided should take account of the fact that homelessness can start much earlier than 16, and that sexuality may have something to do with it. We have to ensure that there are services that deal with people's sexuality no matter what age they are.

What do you understand by "stable family life", which is what the Executive suggests should be written into SCSH's obligations?

I understand it to be a very inclusive term that refers to the diversity of family arrangements in Scotland and incorporates same-sex relationships, single parent relationships and other relationships to deal with the world as it is, not necessarily as we hope it to be. I hope that that is what the Executive means by the term.

As there are no other questions, I thank our witnesses for attending the meeting. This has been a very interesting session. I again apologise for being late.

Meeting adjourned.

On resuming—

We now have with us, from the Stonewall Youth Project, Jamie Rennie and Anne Patrizio—is that correct?

Yes.

I apologise for keeping you waiting. People took much longer than we anticipated. You may say a few words to us, by way of introduction, and then I shall open the discussion for questions.

Thank you for inviting us to attend the meeting today. I would like to introduce myself and my colleague before we present our evidence and answer your questions.

My name is Jamie Rennie and I am the manager of the Stonewall Youth Project, a unique example in Scotland of a service-providing agency that deals specifically with the needs of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender young people. The project works with hundreds of young people each year through its phone line, group work and face-to-face support services. It is also a lead member of the Lothian Association of Youth Clubs and currently holds the chair of that organisation.

My colleague, Anne Patrizio, is the organiser of Parents Enquiry (Scotland)—a separate organisation that provides support to parents of LGBT young people through a network of volunteers, all of whom are parents whose children are gay. Parents Enquiry (Scotland) is a wholly voluntary organisation that is run from parents' homes. Anne can say a few words about that organisation.

About 30 parents throughout the UK are involved—four of us in Scotland—and we use our own phones. People can phone us at any time. Parents phone us when they are very distressed and have no idea where to go for information. We befriend them, sometimes for several years, and help them through the difficulty of finding out that they have a gay, lesbian or transgender child.

As you would expect, we would like to focus on the aspects of the bill that are concerned with section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988.

In our submission to the committee, we have quoted young people and their teachers quite a lot to illustrate how young gay people and the issues that concern them are dealt with in schools and the councils that oversee those schools. The submission does not contain the research and statistical data that demonstrate much of the trauma that many young gay people go through on their journey into adulthood.

I would like to make four points concerning that research. Recently, three independent academic surveys took place in Edinburgh. They showed that 60 per cent of gay people say that they were bullied at school as a result of their sexuality—an alarming figure, I hope you will agree. Only 6 per cent of schools have an anti-bullying policy that is either gay-sympathetic or gay-specific. Of the young people surveyed, 20 per cent confessed to inflicting serious self-harm or to attempting suicide as a result of bullying. In a recent survey of 200 young people by our project, 20 per cent had been homeless at some time as a result of homophobia.

Although section 28 has been viewed by many parents and others as a safeguard, in our opinion it has assisted in the destruction of many young gay people's lives. We should be honest with ourselves when we talk about the Keep the Clause campaign—when many parents say, "Keep the clause," they are really saying, "I would like my child to grow up to be heterosexual."

We believe that choice has little to do with sexuality. The opinion of the British Medical Association is that sexual orientation is set before puberty. That brings into question the concept of promoting homosexuality. It has been said that we may as well try to promote left-handedness among young people as to promote homosexuality.

Section 28 presents our youth with the message that young LGBT people are second-class citizens in the eyes of the law, and—if they are gay themselves—that they are inferior to their classmates and therefore less deserving of the Scottish education of which we are all so proud. We feel that the section has cut two ways into the fabric of our society, alienating some and prejudicing others.

We hope that the Executive's new wording will remove the venom from the wound that the section has created. Leaders will have to make a genuine effort to ensure that the new wording, along with any guidelines that might be put in place, are not interpreted as an old section 28 with a new name.

I have been a teacher in special education for 20 years. Under education legislation in the early 1980s, children had to be educated according to their needs. We had a carefully worked out sex education programme that encouraged self-esteem, that told children how to say no, and that gave all the health and more general information that you would expect.

My son, who is gay, had no education at school that helped him. He knew when he was six that he was different; he was 23 before he told us that he was gay. He had had 17 years of wondering what was going on. For the latter seven to 10 of those years, he knew that we were not anti-gay, but he also knew that, because of the prejudices in society, we would have a difficult life. It took us quite a while as a family to come to terms with it. Even though we were not homophobic, it was very frightening, because we could not help our child. We did not know where to turn for help. Eventually, we turned to the Lothian Lesbian and Gay Switchboard.

Because the issue cannot be discussed at school, young people learn about it in pubs and clubs. They are at far greater risk now than they were when we had very safe, well-thought-out guidelines that allowed the children to discuss all their problems in a safe environment. That is very important. The parents who phone the switchboard are in deep distress; several of them have had nervous breakdowns because they do not know where to turn. If the issue could have been discussed over the past few years, the parents would not be in the state that they are in. Anyone can have a gay child. If homosexuality could be discussed in schools now, when the children grew up and had gay children they would not go through the torment that the parents who phone us experience.

That concludes our introduction.

In the last paragraph of your paper you refer to "the lack of direct consultation with young people on this issue", which I think is important. Do you have a vehicle at the local level through which we could consult, without waiting for an annual youth parliament? Are there groups of young gay people who could tell us what they thought about things?

There are two sides to that. First, the Scottish Youth Parliament will be meeting in Dundee this weekend, and it would be interesting to see what the young people who meet in that forum think about this issue. Secondly, around the country there are a number of support groups for young gay people. Many of them have tried to contribute to the debate, but I am not aware of their having had an opportunity to come together.

Although many people have had an opportunity to contribute to the debate, there has not been a proactive effort to seek the views of young people—not only young gay people, but young people in general—on this issue. Much has been said about parental rights, quite rightly, but I do not feel that the views of young people have been taken on board.

Those who argue for the retention of section 28 to protect young people would say that a school's anti-bullying policy is sufficient to prevent homophobic bullying, and that no school should allow bullying, regardless of its cause. Is there something missing from schools' broad anti-bullying policies because of section 28? How would you deal with the argument that a good school would not allow bullying anyway?

It all comes down to practitioners. In a second, I will ask Anne Patrizio whether she has any experience of this problem from her work. Before I came to work in the youth sector I taught for a period, and I feel that teachers who have the responsibility of overseeing and minimising the amount of bullying that happens in schools are missing the education that would help them understand the issues that young gay people face.

The City of Edinburgh Council must be congratulated on introducing guidelines that are very progressive and proactive, and on seeking to monitor specific incidents of homophobic bullying in schools. If that could be replicated throughout the country, it would go a long way towards raising the profile of the issue. The reason that not much has been done and that so many young people continue to present us with incidents of bullying is that we do not have hard evidence to back up the anecdotal data that we collect.

Is there any evidence of schools being unable to deal with bullying of youngsters who live in households where a parent is living with a partner of the same sex?

That certainly comes up, and when it has, schools have dealt with it—although everything depends very much on the staff in schools. However, often victims are doubly victimised, because they are expected to change their behaviour.

An organisation in Edinburgh called the Lesbian Mothers Group has had to confront this problem on a number of occasions. It has been suggested that same-sex couples should minimise their interaction with schools, so that they do not draw attention to the fact that their child comes from a household in which there is a same-sex couple. Similarly, in relation to young men and women who are bullied at school, it has been suggested recently at an East Lothian school that a young man should arrive at school five minutes late, leave five minutes early and spend lunch time in the library to minimise the victimisation that he suffers.

The previous group that gave evidence, the Scottish Council for Single Homeless, referred to a report that the Stonewall Youth Project was working on in relation to homelessness among young gay people. I know that you have not finalised the report, but can you tell us what your preliminary findings are with regard to the degree to which the inability of local authorities to tackle issues about homosexuality adds to the problems of homelessness faced by young gay people?

The research report to which the previous witnesses referred is an action research pilot project over 12 months, which will move into its second phase as of the beginning of next month.

The first phase focused on gathering data about housing and housing issues from young people who access the Stonewall Youth Project and on recording their knowledge. It found that 20 per cent of those who accessed us had been made homeless as a result, in their opinion, of being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. We have not been able to ascertain how authorities are going to deal with that; that will happen in the second phase.

We are pleased to say that Scottish Homes has supported the project and is looking to support us in providing levels of training to local authorities. Once again, City of Edinburgh Council has become a progressive organisation and has recently changed, or amended, many of its policies and procedures to be inclusive of gay and lesbian issues.

My experience of working with parents of drug addicts is that they think they are alone. I suppose that is what happens when you get phone calls. Parents think that they are the first people to whom this has happened.

What do you understand, in the existing terms used in section 2A, as the promotion of homosexuality? What does that mean?

I find it confusing, because you cannot make somebody gay. It is meaningless and frightened staff in the schools in which I taught. My son is mixed race and adopted, and when he had trouble being bullied in relation to that, the schools knew what to do, for example, by teaching about Christmas in many lands. However, when he was older and gay, there was silence because they did not know what to do.

Was it your understanding that they thought that if they pursued the matter and talked to him, they would be promoting homosexuality?

Yes, or they did not know how to deal with it because it does not come up in teacher training. It certainly never came up in mine, although I think that Stonewall does a bit more now.

I noticed that one of the quotes in your submission to the committee is

"there are no gay kids in our schools".

That is an interesting quote. Does Jamie Rennie want to add anything about his understanding of what promotion of homosexuality is?

I am not aware of how to promote homosexuality and would probably be the last person who would want to do so. A lot of young people say: "Why do people think that it is a choice? Why would I choose to be four times more likely to be the victim of a violent attack? Why would I choose to be picked on by society? Why would I choose to be this way when all the messages that society sends out say that being gay or lesbian is difficult and may result in violence, harassment, lower job prospects and a whole range of other things? Why would I choose that? I do not think that it is a choice."

The quote that I mentioned—I will not say which area it was from to protect the source—was

"there are no gay kids in our schools".

It referred to the entire council area that the worker had mentioned. That quotation is from a teacher who works in a school in the area and who did not wish the department to be named as they felt that it would come back on them.

While I do not see how it is possible to promote homosexuality, it is possible to promote tolerance and understanding, which should be the cornerstone of Scotland's education system.

As a former head teacher who was opposed to bullying of all descriptions, I did not think that it mattered why a child was being bullied. Bullying was a sufficient offence in itself and had to be dealt with in an inimitable way.

The new paragraphs that the Executive is proposing to include in section 26 of the Ethical Standards in Public Life etc. (Scotland) Bill talk about

"(a) the value of stable family life in a child's development; and

(b) the need to ensure that the content of instruction provided in the performance of those functions is appropriate, having regard to each child's age, understanding and stage of development."

Are you quite comfortable with those paragraphs?

We are fairly and broadly happy with them. We had one suggestion—we felt that the needs of the child should also be considered in order to ensure that young people who are not heterosexual—not only those who are gay or lesbian but those who feel that they have specific needs—could lever education authorities into providing them with a good quality education.

However, the wording is broadly non-specific as far as sexual orientation is concerned, and we would endorse the sentiments that all school materials should be appropriate. There should be some form of vetting to ensure that all the constituencies of teaching staff, young people, their parents and other people connected to them feel comfortable using those materials.

As you have some reservations, I expect that you have experience of some teachers who are not as tolerant, reasonable and forward looking as you might like them to be.

You will understand that there is another side to the argument and that there are people who wish to keep the section who take the view that the Executive's proposals are the thin edge of the wedge and that promotion of homosexuality could become outrageous. Are you satisfied that that is not the game plan?

I am certainly not aware of any organisations stockpiling explicit material, awaiting the opportunity to flood Scotland's schools with it. Given the fact that our budget is so low, we could not afford to send a letter to every school in Scotland, never mind a load of leaflets.

Young people have many well-meaning allies, no matter what sort of discrimination may exist within the education sector. The provision of guidance from the top that says that Scotland's education system should be available to all, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation, would be a progressive step. The wording of the Executive's proposals does not hamper that.

As there are no more questions, I thank the witnesses for attending. I apologise again for making them wait.